Lichfield Cathedral

Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25

A Mr Peter Mellar posted a topic on the RDVD regarding a memorial to the 80th in Lichfield Cathedral. Which got me surfing the net. And I came up with this.

"The whole of the aisle of this transept is taken up with the organ, in front of which a metal screen or gryll was placed in 1881 by the officers and men of the 80th Regiment, in memory of their comrades who fell in the Zulu War. The screen is ornamented with imitations of Zulu shields and assegais."

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Anyone from the forum was to the Cathedral.

Admin I wasn't sure where to post this. So you might want to move it in to another section of the forum.

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

I haven’t yet but I will, just to see the memorial.

Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25

One of the best memorial's I have seen connected with the Zulu war.

Posts : 30 Join date : 2009-09-29

I am the one who originally posted this on the RDVC forum, and it has an interesting backstory. Although it is still unclear to me whether the Zulu assegais in the memorial were actually taken from the battlefield at Ulundi, their inclusion was extremely controversial. Several years after the war, the dean of the cathedral tried to get the memorial removed, and this enraged Major Tucker so much that he went straight to the cathedral and said: "Send for the f***ing dean!" I may still have some further photographs if anybody is interested, but will have to check.

Posts : 527 Join date : 2009-02-28

Hi. Prm502

firstly welcome to the Forum.
That’s a very interesting story. When you have the time I would be very keen to see the photos if you do have any. I was always under the illusion they were replicas. Looking forward to the Photo’s and any other information you may have. The display is certainly impressive,

S.D

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

prm I would be interested if you have any. Post away.

Subject: photographs Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:33 am

hi prm502,

Welcome to the forum , feel free to post away.I would like to see more photos .
Cheers 90th.

Posts : 1093 Join date : 2009-01-14 Location : East London

Has anyone actually been to Lichfield Cathedral to see this fine display?

Subject: Re: Lichfield Cathedral Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:17 pm

This memorial; contains the names of Lichfield's Zulu War dead which are actually listed on the shields. Here's another photo from a different angle

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Posts : 30 Join date : 2009-09-29

I'm just trying to find where my pictures are, should have them up by tonight! Just to inform you that the shields have the names of every single member of the 80th who died at Intombi and Ulunidi - they don't however seem to have the names of the 6 members of the 80th who died at Isandlwana!

Subject: Re: Lichfield Cathedral Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:42 pm

I wonder why that is, I'm sure 1879Graves and 90th will find out why their names are not there.

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

Came across this with refrence to the memorial.

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Posts : 1603 Join date : 2009-09-21

I tried to enhance this photo to show some of the names on the shields. But its not that clear. But it gives an idea of what they look like. Hope it helps.

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Posts : 30 Join date : 2009-09-29

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Subject: names on shields. Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:08 am

hi admin,
I have no idea why the 80th troops , killed at Isandlwana aren"t on the shields at LICHFIELD. Maybe those involved
with setting up the shield memorial didnt realise 6 soldiers of the 80th regt were at Isandlwana.
I have R. HOPE"S book on the 80th regt in africa , will see if anything is mentioned about Lichfield.
cheers 90th.

Subject: Lichfield memorial Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:28 am

hi all,
I went through HOPE"S book on the 80th regt in sth africa and found no mention of why those killed at
isandlwana aren"t on the shield memorial. Do we know for sure that these names are NOT listed ?.
cheers 90th.

Posts : 3362 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon

1271 Qm- Sgt. Wm. Johnson, 1377 John Chesterton, 1433 Edwd Holman, 559 Wm. McDonald,
695 Shoeing-Sm. Wm. Seymour (Pte. on the roll) and 60 Private Joseph Whitehouse, were all listed under the Mounted Infantry killed at Isandlwana.
This could be why they are not listed on the Memorial, but I did not know they were not. scratch

Subject: Re: Lichfield Cathedral Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:51 pm

That’s makes sense.

Subject: lichfield missing names Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:37 am

hi all.
I have emailed the 80th regimental museum , The researcher says 7 men involved , 6 attached to the 1ST SQDN
MTD INF, the other attached to HQ STAFF NO3 COL, all these KIA 22/1/79. He goes on to say that in ROBERT
HOPE"S book on the 80th Regt in STH Africa 1878-79 , 95 officers and men were casualties of the war . The shields
have 15 names and there are 5 of them which comes to a total of 90 names, The curator said its not uncommon for
memorials to be incomplete, he will make further enquiries and get back to me.
cheers 90th.

ps. I have just looked at the shields , they seem to have more than 15 names on each one , so not sure where
the researcher is coming from , scratch

Posts : 30 Join date : 2009-09-29

I presume you spoke to either Erik Blakeley or Willie Turner, both are excellent researchers so I'm sure they'll find out what's up! - all I can say for definite is that there is definitely not a sub-category for Isandlwana on the shields, whereas there are for Intombi and Ulundi - maybe they are included accidentally in the Intombi list??

Posts : 30 Join date : 2009-09-29

It is actually possible that some of those who died in South Africa (1877-80), but not during battle, could be on the memorial in error - there were 46 soldiers who died at places other than Isandlwana/Intombi/Ulundi, but I think at least 17 of these may be on the shields! I can definitely say that 7 men died at Isandlwana, 61 at Intombi, 2 at Ulundi (with 5 severely wounded - may have died subsequently of injuries?) and 2 wounded at Kambula. Civil Surgeon William Ingram Cobbin of the Army Medical Department and Joseph Whittington, a waggon conductor of the Commisariat and Transport Department, also were killed at Intombi whilst attached to the 80th, so that's a possible 125 people!

As a beside, there isn't any recognition of Samuel Wassall in the cathedral, I would have thought that his VC would have been big news!

Subject: lichfield missing names Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:58 am

hi prm502.
Mr. J. ELSON is the contact who emailed me , concerning the missing names , he will get
back to me when he has had a chance to check the records.
cheers 90th.

Posts : 30 Join date : 2009-09-29

90th wrote:: hi prm502.
Mr. J. ELSON is the contact who emailed me , concerning the missing names , he will get
back to me when he has had a chance to check the records.
cheers 90th.

Well Jeff Elson is one of the volunteers and he is a Zulu War fanatic, so he certainly knows his stuff!

Subject: Re: Lichfield Cathedral Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:10 am

I make it 18 Names on each shield. Unless two of the text box's contains the dates and regiment.

Posts : 3362 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon

This thread has been playing on my mind for sometime now. The question why the ones killed at Isandlwana were not on the memorial !!!! As I said before, I did not know they were not.

Well today, I went up into the loft and found the photographs of the memorial I took when I went to Lichfield a few years ago.

There are 17 names on the first shield, 18 names on the second, 20 names on the third, 16 names on the fourth and 17 names on the fifth shield, making a total of 88 names.

On the fourth shield from the left, there are 7 names listed under Killed at Isandhlwana, so they are listed on the memorial and they are Sgt. William. Johnson, Privates John Chesterton, Edward Holman, Henry Thompson, William McDonald, William Seymour and Joseph Whitehouse. So there are 7 killed at Isandlwana not 6. The other thing to note is, Henry Thompson is listed on the memorial as a Private but on the medal roll, he is listed as a Sergeant.

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

So doe's that account for all of them.

Posts : 3362 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon

90th wrote:: He goes on to say that in ROBERT
HOPE"S book on the 80th Regt in STH Africa 1878-79 , 95 officers and men were casualties of the war.

Hi John

From the photographs I took, I can only count 88 names on the shields, so to answer your question, I would have to say the memorial does not account for all of the 80th who fell during 1878-1879 campaigns.

Subject: lichfield missing names Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:05 am

hi 1879graves.
In regard to the 7 killed at ISANDLWANA , 6 were members of the MTD INFANTRY, the other was on
the HDQTRS STAFF.

This from ROBERT HOPE'S book. A STAFFORDSHIRE REGT IN THE ZULU AND SEKUKUNI CAMPAIGNS
1878 - 1879. 80TH REGT OF FOOT.
CASUALTY LIST. A total of 126 , of which 70 are K.I.A. ISANDLWANA 7 , INTOMBI RIVER 61 , ULUNDI 2 ,WOUNDED KAMBULA 2
ULUNDI 5 . Civil surgeon Cobbin of the army med dept and Joseph Whittington a wagon conductor of the commissariat and transport dept, both attached to the 80th regt, were also killed at Intombi River. During the taking of SEKUKUNI KRAAL 1 man
was wounded. There are also 46 names of soldiers who died whilst serving with the regt in sth africa and 17 of these were NOT
awarded the SOUTH AFRICA MEDAL..
Cheers 90th.

Posts : 1603 Join date : 2009-09-21

The names on the shields, are they just those that were killed at Isandlwana.

Subject: Lichfield memorial Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:10 am

hi Dave.
If you read all the above posts you will see which names are on the shields :)
cheers 90th.

Subject: Re: Lichfield Cathedral Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:42 am

1879graves
Thompson's actual rank was Acting QM-Sergeant and he was attached to the Staff.
The other 6 were all IMI.
Hope's book is in error.

Posts : 3362 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon

Hi Julian

Many thanks for the update and I will correct my records.

Subject: Re: Lichfield Cathedral Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:15 pm

I was on a Rotary Friendship Exchange to the UK Midlands in 2012 when my host took me to Lichfield Cathedral. I could hardly believe my eyes when I saw the memorial. It is magnificent. I might add that there was a reference or link to South Africa in virtually every church and cathedral that I visited. Made me feel quite at home!

» 80th Regiment's Memorial at Lichfield Cathedral
» Melvill Memorial Window. St. Fin Barre’s Cathedral
» Memorial to men of the 80th Regiment who died on campaign in South Africa 1878-9 (Lichfield)