Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company.

Guest

Can anyone tell me what Regiment this man belonged to please? He was mentioned in the obituary for Pt John Jobbins.

"As the coffin was borne from the house to the hearse, the firing party brought their rifles to the “present” and afterward to the reverse. Sgt-Major C. Norman D.C.M., was in charge with Sgt J Roberts. There was a representative gathering of the British Legion Organisations. Mr James Frowen Williams [Zulu war Veteran] was also present together with Mr W. H. Roberts from Bargoed. A large crowd assembled at the graveside, where full military honours were accorded the departed veteran, and floral tributes were laid."

Cheers
Bookworm

Posts : 3362 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon

Hi Bookworm

I am unable to pin point James Frowen Williams, I have the following list:-

Private F. Williams, RM, RN HMS Euphrates
Private F. Williams, 2nd 21st Royal Scots Fusiliers
Private F. Williams, Army Service Corps (Transport)
Private F. Williams, Royal Durban Rifles
Lieutenant F. Williams, Diamond Fields Horse.

I hope this helps scratch

Subject: Re: Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company. Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:15 pm

Bookworm. You have started something here. I have just had a message from Littlehand, who is busy searching for this Chap. I have spent a couple of hours. Nil result. (But we will continue the search)

Guest

Hi Both,

Thanks for trying, I had thought that with the distinctive middle name it might be easy to find something but I had the same result, nil.

Cheers,
Bookworm

Posts : 1 Join date : 2012-08-04

james frowen williams was a long relative of mine, my father as the same middle name, frowen... i have struggled to get much information on him however, but apparently he was out on manouvers when the zulu's attacked, losing his eye in the process. i have photo's of him that i will post when can.

Subject: Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company. Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:13 pm

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1232 J Williams Corporal in F Company 23/1/1879 awarded 1877-8-9 with clasp As per The Noble 24th.

Did not take part in the defence of RD, although he may have been there after the event.

Subject: Corp James Frowen Williams F Co Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:33 am

I saw this on the RDVC Forum . Very Happy

90th

Posts : 8 Join date : 2024-02-15 Location : Somerset

I wonder if the individual could be No.25B/800 James Frowan?

The article Littlehand uploaded provides a few interesting details, the first being service in the Monmouthshire Militia.

A James Frowen No. 6186 enlisted 12/01/1876, at Pontypool, age 21, occupation Collier, address 5 Houses (this is how it has been transcribed from the original), Abertillery, height 5' 7''

I cannot find a John Rosser enlisting at the same time, however, there is a possible candidate.

John Prosser No. 6185 same enlistment date, same place, age 19, occupation Collier, address 2 Houses, Abertillery, height 5' 7"

I would be very surprised if they did not know each other.

No. 800 Frowan enlisted into the 24th Regiment 25/03/1876, occupation given as collier, born Pontypool and age was 21. Same man as joined the Militia ??
No. 797 (799 on Effects Roll) Prosser enlisted 23/03/1876, however age given as 18 years 4 months so a discrepancy, but both men enlisted at Monmouth.

I accept there are some discrepencies, spelling of names, age, etc., but No. 800 is a possible candidate given what we know.

Posts : 3362 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon

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Western mail, 30 December 1935.

Subject: Corp. James Frowan Williams F Company Tue Mar 05, 2024 12:11 am

Excellent pic Andy , Although he wasn't at the Battle of RD I'm sure he could've told the young uns the story of what happened ?
90th Salute

Subject: Re: Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company. Tue Mar 05, 2024 7:32 am

I wonder how he came to get associated with the Battle of RD?

Was it a mistake that he happened to find convenient eg said he was "at RD and people thought he meant he was AT RD" or was it a deliberate tale put around by the chap?

We'll never know I suppose but I like to surmise.

Subject: Re: Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company. Wed Mar 06, 2024 9:19 pm

A long shot - might there be a connexion to L/Corp C Frowen (G coy) who was with Upcher's men on the road from Helpmekaar to RD?

Subject: Re: Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company. Sun Mar 10, 2024 8:16 pm

According to the research of Alan R Baynham' Jones at the Royal Welsh museum he lists him as 25B/903 2/24th James Frowan Williams.

Served in the Mounted Infantry (2nd Sqn) Attended the funeral of Jobbins 26/09/1934

Don't believe I have ever seen an initial in the pay-lists so maybe that's why he is difficult to pin-point?

Subject: Re: Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company. Sun Mar 10, 2024 8:23 pm

I have this man in my MI list but without a middle name. ABJ has his middle name as Frowen not Frowan. I can't verify the middle name at the moment. I wonder where ABJ found it? One of the articles above?

Subject: Re: Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company. Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:07 pm

Yes, you're right Frowen, my slip up.

ABJ has only the vaguest entry, enlisting circa 1876 yet he is clearly in the 25th Brigade Depot from 20/11/1876 with an almost immediate posting to the 2/24th a few days later. That may be an indicator of prior Militia training. His appendices' do list WO 12/10247 for the Depot 1876-77 so he must have missed that entry.
Perhaps if he was Militia it may be in WO 13/1534-35 covering Monmouth & Brecon 1872-76 which he has also listed.

Subject: Re: Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company. Sun Mar 10, 2024 9:13 pm

As far as the pay lists go he was a private when his MI duty started in March 1878 till it finished on 12.9.1879. No sign of a corporalcy. Barrow's 2nd Squadron was with Pearson's column so Williams could not have been at RD (at least not in the immediate aftermath of the battle; he might of course have been there later in the war).

Subject: Re: Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company. Sun Mar 10, 2024 10:33 pm

Welll, not sure why Littlehand assumes he was 1232 J. Williams who was promoted L/Cpl not full Cpl.
As we all know (from England's Sons) the only Williams at Rorke's Drift were:
1328 L/Sgt Thomas Williams
1395 Pte. John Williams (aka Fielding V
C.)
1398 Pte. Joseph Williams KIA
934 Pte.John Williams died 05/02/1879 at RD. Incidentally he was a collier from Pontypool.
The earliest men returned from India was on the 27th January 1883 and it did include 903 Williams.
Also:
944 Evan Williams
979 Harry P. Williams
2637 Hugh Williams
It would appear from the tone of the articles that it is stating he was a Rorke's Drift survivor, whether it is from him or a misinterpretation from the newspaper. Which is certainly untrue if Williams was his name in the pay-lists.

Subject: Re: Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company. Sun Mar 10, 2024 11:02 pm

As seems to have been fairly common, anyone interviewed by the papers who was 'at RD', was assumed to have fought there, even if they were only passing through or visiting a few weeks later. It is easy to see how an old soldier could be persuaded by circumstances to "remember with advantages" and fall into the trap of saying, 'yes, I was at RD.'.

Subject: Re: Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company. Mon Mar 11, 2024 11:45 am

Especially if a pint or two usually followed the confirmation of 'being there'.....

Subject: Re: Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company. Mon Mar 11, 2024 5:17 pm

Precisely! They were the 'circumstances' I was referring to!

Posts : 8 Join date : 2024-02-15 Location : Somerset

This is why I joined this forum debate, analysis, problem solving and a dose of humour.
I want to believe No. 903 James Williams is our man but there are one or two things that do not sit easy with me.
No. 903 Williams attestation/service record makes no mention of having served in the militia (a lie?), there is also no mention of the loss of an eye, although he did have an extended stay in hospital between 01/12/1879 and 10/01/1880, but for the life of me I cannot decipher the handwriting as to cause. He subsequently served in Gibraltar and India before transfer to the Army Reserve 30/03/1883. If he lost an eye would that not show on his medical record and probably lead to discharge from the service?? if of course he lost the eye in service!
His age on enlistment was 19 years 1 month, so a birth sometime in October 1857, does that tally with the newspaper article. Also his occupation is farm labourer, the newspaper article indicates early service in the pits, would he have then become a farm labourer??
I am sure there are people far better positioned than I to answer this.

Subject: Re: Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company. Mon Mar 11, 2024 6:21 pm

Death at the age of 83 - if he was born in 1857, that puts his death in 1940. The records aren't available to the public yet. The 1939 Register is though (and it was updated during the war). I'll have to check if he was still alive then.
Militia service was not always included in service records and the eye loss could have occurred post-discharge. There is nothing to suggest that 903 isn't our man but I would like to know on what basis ABJ assigned the 'Frowen' to him. That, I'm afraid we'll never know.

Posts : 8 Join date : 2024-02-15 Location : Somerset

Julian,
I've just taken another look at the article that Littlehand posted which was taken from another forum. At the bottom of the newspaper page written in pen is the date January 21, 1938 (this is not on Littlehand's screenshot)

If that is correct birth year would be 1855 possibly 1854.

Of course it is not part of the original document but would not understand somebody adding it if it did not have meaning.

Subject: Re: Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company. Mon Mar 11, 2024 11:03 pm

The precise date offered makes sense.

Posts : 8 Join date : 2024-02-15 Location : Somerset

Just an update to my previous post, I believe the date of January 21, 1938 on the article relates to the date of the newspaper.

I have found a burial record for a James Frowen Williams, his address is given as 10 Dent's Buildings, Abersychan and the burial date is January 13, 1938 age given as 84.

There appears to be a birth record from Q1 1855 for an individual of the same name, mothers maiden named recorded as Parry.

Subject: Re: Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company. Fri Mar 15, 2024 9:08 am

Looks like you've found your man.

» Corporal James Fuller
» Lance-Corporal William Bessell, ‘B’ Company (Rorke's Drift)
» Lance Corporal 13747 John Watson 30th Company Royal Engineers