Durnford was he capable. 3

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CREALOCK is a renowned liar and CLERY a

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Guest

Yes CREALOCK is a renowned liar !!!

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Deleted off topic

Guest

Deleted off topic

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I can see why topics get locked down. $Don\'t agree$

Guest

Nothing is locked! Isandhlwana is so popular and why this website exists ... because in the lack of evidence, speculation can be endless Salute

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Pascal MAHE wrote:: Nothing is locked! Isandhlwana is so popular and why this website exists ... because in the lack of evidence, speculation can be endless

Still Pascal, you could expend less time and effort baiting people. Plus, your topic might not get locked...but it could get merged.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3 Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:51 pm

Littlehand
probably your finest post. Well done my friend. Salute

The terrible thigs is I have just finished reading Keith Smiths Studies in the AZ War ' in conjunction with 'ZUlu Victory". Your touch of absurdity brilliant as it is, is so close to the truth its frightening.

Cheers:Salute: Salute

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6pdr All topics on the forum are elastic ect .. No no blocks, some merge ect ... I do not mind me!

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It is said that Col: Dunford told men to get away best they could?

Extract from A J Secretan in his letter home as printed in The Standard on the 25 th of March, 1879

[i]I have the following from one of our fellows who escaped, and who when leaving saw Louis mounting his horse. Colonel Durnford called out to him What are you mounting for? He replied I have no more ammunition, sir. The officer then told him to stand his ground with his knife only, and Louis replied, Yes, sir, I will. So you see while others were riding away and cutting their way through, Louis obeyed orders and stood with the soldiers until all the officers were killed and there were no orders to be heard, and then it was every man for himself, and all did the best they could… (The British Library Board)

Not the case for Trooper Secretan?

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Dave wrote:: Durnford called out to him, 'What are you mounting for?'

Perhaps because this trooper would have been alone vs. the situation where he told the leader of a formation to make good their escape? It would be good to know the timeline of these events too...

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Still good point, about the white officers making excuses to leave him?
Mad dogs and Englishman and all that!

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3 Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:00 pm

From Durnford in a letter to his brother, read from Colonel Anthony Durnford.

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Source: Running the Show: Governors of the British Empire 1857-1912
By Stephanie Williams

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Yet more evidence as to his mind-set. Salute

Subject: Durnford was he capable ? Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:05 am

Hi ctsg .
Please explain ? scratch

90th

Posts : 1261 Join date : 2010-04-12

" I blush for my white skin here "

"If they knew their own strength could Hurl the white race into the sea"

LC was in command of the entire campaign, he needed men he could trust. Not sure Durnford fitted the bill.

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Chard1879 wrote:: " I blush for my white skin here "

"If they knew their own strength could Hurl the white race into the sea"

LC was in command of the entire campaign, he needed men he could trust. Not sure Durnford fitted the bill.

I fail to see how a recognition of relative numbers translates into, "not to be trusted." What do you think he proposed to do based upon his assessment?

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Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:: Yet more evidence as to his mind-set.

We know how he fought on the battlefield. His actions are not a mystery. What is your point?

Guest

Mischief, i feel the same. they needed throwing back into the sea.
poor Zulu. an Independent Sovereign Nation.justify? xhosa:x .

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6pdr wrote:

Chard1879 wrote:: " I blush for my white skin here "

"If they knew their own strength could Hurl the white race into the sea"

LC was in command of the entire campaign, he needed men he could trust. Not sure Durnford fitted the bill.

I fail to see how a recognition of relative numbers translates into, "not to be trusted." What do you think he proposed to do based upon his assessment?

You do see them. We know your not that stupid!

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6pdr wrote:

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:: Yet more evidence as to his mind-set.

We know how he fought on the battlefield. His actions are not a mystery. What is your point?

But his mind set is questionable!

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chard1879,by who,c'mon.ffs i'm nodding in bed on my lt.
xhosa2000

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John John, from another thread. wrote:: On the afternoon of 11th January, Durnford paid a visit on Lord Chelmsford, who had now attached his headquarters to Glyn's force. He acquainted the General with some intelligence gleaned from messengers loyal to the Lutheran Bishop Hans Paludan Smith Schreuder, before returning to his designated position.

At this time rumours and counter-rumours as to the Zulu dispositions were rife. Schreuder wrote to Durnford warning him of a threat of a Zulu incursion over the Middle Drift. Durnford received the message on 13th January. He hastily wrote a dispatch to Chelmsford apprising him of the supposed threat, and that he intended to meet the enemy on the Zulu side of the Middle Drift.
At 2 a.m. on 14th January, Durnford roused his men, and readied them for a forced march at 4 a.m. As Durnford was on the summit of Kranz Kop preparing to descend into the valley leading towards the drift a galloper from Lord Chelmsford met him.

The dispatch from Chelmsford was forthright and to the point:

DID DURNFORD HAVE ANY INTELLIGENCE AS TO HOW MANY ZULUS HE WAS RIDING AGAINST!

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xhosa2000 wrote:: chard1879,by who,c'mon.ffs i'm nodding in bed on my lt.
xhosa2000

I think chard1879 can read minds...of the dead.

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Ulundi wrote:: DID DURNFORD HAVE ANY INTELLIGENCE AS TO HOW MANY ZULUS HE WAS RIDING AGAINST!

Well, it was too early in the war to be the main Zulu impi.

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Didn't really answer the question did it?

Ulundi, no he would not have known how many, he was just going to charge in, like he did at Isandlwana, his mind-set was, if you see Zulus attack them!

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3 Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:46 am

" I blush for my white skin here "

If your going to condemn Durnford for saying that could I expect consistancy and have that same condemnation against the likes of Ruth First or even Joe Slovo? I do believe that one of the two said virtually the same thing?
By the way, both were incredibly brave patriots.

Cheers Salute

Subject: Durnford was he capable ? Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:56 pm

Ulundi and Impi seriously , dont forget that LC SPLIT his force to go off and attack the zulu army ALSO NOT KNOWING how many he was attacking , cant see the wisdom in your posts , but then again you dont mind a Durnford bash every know and again ! . Shocked

. It wasnt only Durnford's mind set as you put it , that if you see zulu's attack them ! . LC did the same damn thing didnt he ? . There is much evidence that LC was worried that the zulu army WOULDNT attack , so therefore his mantra was , to ride out into the unknown , as he did during the middle of the night , to do what you are bagging Durnford for doing !!! . Please ...................

90th

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90th wrote:: Ulundi and Impi seriously , dont forget that LC SPLIT his force to go off and attack the zulu army ALSO NOT KNOWING how many he was attacking , cant see the wisdom in your posts , but then again you dont mind a Durnford bash every know and again ! . . It wasnt only Durnford's mind set as you put it , that if you see zulu's attack them ! . LC did the same damn thing didnt he ? . There is much evidence that LC was worried that the zulu army WOULDNT attack , so therefore his mantra was , to ride out into the unknown , as he did during the middle of the night , to do what you are bagging Durnford for doing !!! . Please ...................
90th

Yup. The sequence of events is 1) Durnford charges to the border with his column based on a tip and is condemned for it. 2) Chelmsford splits his force and charges to the Mangeni seeking out a superior force based on a tip. 3) Durnford charges out of the camp with his entire force to support Chelmsford NOT expecting to encounter a superior force.

So ask yourselves, who is committing the bigger military faux pas?

Durnford was only following the example set by his superior.

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My opinion is unimportant, but I noted that many members of this forum who are at loggerheads over the "blame game" all seem to respect the opinions of Ian Knight.

How quickly some seem to have forgotten (or did not read properly) Ian Knight's answers to the questions he was posed about many of the issues being argued over, above.

IK does not blame Durnford, nor Pulleine, nor Chelmsford regarding the loss of Isandhlwana. In fact, he explains their actions in a crystal clear, erudite and logical way.

I for one used to think Chelmsford was to blame until I read Ian Knight's full and complete answers. I have been convinced by IK's answers, that all the main players were simply doing their job as they saw fit and that to attempt to apportion blame is futile and silly and shows a total lack of understanding of the subject.

As Knight points out, quite obviously, the actual people to blame (if that is what you seek to do) for the loss of life and property at Isandhlwana are the commanders of the Zulu Army!!!!!!!!

May I suggest that if you are one of those still blaming Chelmsford, Durnford, Pulleine, or any other officer of the Empire for the loss at Isandhlwana, that you re-read IK's amazing, enlightening, informative answers.

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kopie wrote:: May I suggest that if you are one of those still blaming Chelmsford, Durnford, Pulleine, or any other officer of the Empire for the loss at Isandhlwana, that you re-read IK's amazing, enlightening, informative answers.

Or, better yet, read ZULU RISING. Frankly, there was nothing amazing because he has been telling this story for quite some time now. I was more amazed to read Adrian Greaves' latest and apparently last book on the Zulu last night: THE TRIBE THAT WASHED ITS SPEARS. During the chapters on Isandlwana the names Durnford and Pulleine are never even mentioned! (This may have something to do with his co-author's perspective: Xolani Mkhize.)

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This who's to blame battle as been raging since 1879. Does it really matter. It all falls on the shoulders of the senior man present.

Guest

' not a sod was turned '!.

Guest

All, i happen to think that Chelmsford,Pulleine and Durnford,
were in turn. complacent, indecisive, and impulsive, re the
camp, Melvill,Dunbar,Clery, and i repeat ' not a sod was
turned '!. Ian Knight has commanded full respect by his peers
and us common folk alike, his answers in the instances cited
bear all the hallmarks of a consummate diplomat..

The AZW was over 130 years ago, most of the relevant inform-
ation has been in the public domain for considerably longer than
the sources routinely quoted here. oh yes there was blame
alright and it is extremely naive to think differently. " everybody
just did their job " oh yeah tell that back in Britain to the wife's
and children. cheers xhosa

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Kopie wrote:: Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 2 Today at 4:10 pm
My opinion is unimportant, but I noted that many members of this forum who are at loggerheads over the "blame game" all seem to respect the opinions of Ian Knight.

How quickly some seem to have forgotten (or did not read properly) Ian Knight's answers to the questions he was posed about many of the issues being argued over, above.

IK does not blame Durnford, nor Pulleine, nor Chelmsford regarding the loss of Isandhlwana. In fact, he explains their actions in a crystal clear, erudite and logical way.

I for one used to think Chelmsford was to blame until I read Ian Knight's full and complete answers. I have been convinced by IK's answers, that all the main players were simply doing their job as they saw fit and that to attempt to apportion blame is futile and silly and shows a total lack of understanding of the subject.

As Knight points out, quite obviously, the actual people to blame (if that is what you seek to do) for the loss of life and property at Isandhlwana are the commanders of the Zulu Army!!!!!!!!

May I suggest that if you are one of those still blaming Chelmsford, Durnford, Pulleine, or any other officer of the Empire for the loss at Isandhlwana, that you re-read IK's amazing, enlightening, informative answers.

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Good post, and it's good to see you satisfied with Ian Knights view and his answer to the long argued question. "Who was to blame" but for some it's what happen prior to the attack, who should have done what, we're orders disobeyed. Why were the men pushed so far from the camp. Was ammo really reaching the firing lines. Was Durnford right to leave the camp, did Melvill and Coghill desert the field, Did Durnford loose his head, it's goes on.

I don't agree the Zulu commanders were the cause of the disaster at Isandlwana. I do beleive they took advantage of the disastrous negligence by the commanders of the British camp. The senior man will be held accountable!

As Bromhead said in the film Zulu. " when you take command old boy, you do it alone"

Guest

Hmmm.

He, lays down a principle ( relative to the border raids,
but even more strongly applicable here.) that if a force
remain's-" on the passive defence without endeavouring
by means of scouting in small bodies, or by raiding in
large ones, to discover what the enemy in its immediate
front, it deserved to be surprised and overpowered".
Gen, Lord Chelmsford.
my underlining.. c 238 p 80 cheers xhosa

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3 Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:54 pm

In his recent impartial study of Anthony Durnford, R W F Droogleever rightly summed up Frances Colenso’s contribution:

"It is sad that Frances Colenso had wasted her energy on what turned out to be simply a paper chase. If she had directed her abilities towards exposing the ambiguity of that final order in terms of previous orders, she might well have succeeded in vindicating Anthony Durnford’s reputation

Interesting comment, goes along the lines of what Martin as been saying.

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"Simeon Kambule, one of Durnford’s native soldiers, recalled that before he left the field he looked back, saw Durnford standing ‘ … in the center of his square with his long moustaches, and one good arm in the air. He was shouting and laughing, “Come round me, come round me. There is no point in running from these people, I know them too well.”

Sound like a man in control! He knew the Zulu's so well, he rode out to meet them in the open, dragging men on foot behind him.

Guest

Also.. Lt Col Durnford R.E. and the Isandhlwana court
of inquiry, by Doctor Adrian Greaves.
AZWHS Fourth Edition Dec 1998.

Deals mainly with the removal of document's
from Durnford's corpse, with primary source
letters from that time. any body out there who
could place it in this place, with a fair use notice.
xhosa

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Guest

By Dr Charles Swaisland Very Happy

anybody got a date for
this.

Posts : 110 Join date : 2013-06-16

I think its around 5 to 4 years old.

Cheers

Guest

Sound like a man in control! He knew the Zulu's so well, he rode out to meet them in the open, dragging men on foot behind him.

impi as always when ive read your cut and paste,
i pay closer attention to what you have to
say. " dragging men on foot behind him ".
expand please. Neutral

xhosa

Guest

drummerboy 16 many thanks xhosa

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xhosa2000 wrote:: Also.. Lt Col Durnford R.E. and the Isandhlwana court
of inquiry, by Doctor Adrian Greaves.
AZWHS Fourth Edition Dec 1998.

Deals mainly with the removal of document's
from Durnford's corpse, with primary source
letters from that time. any body out there who
could place it in this place, with a fair use notice.
xhosa

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Nxhosa2000 wrote:: Sound like a man in control! He knew the Zulu's so well, he rode out to meet them in the open, dragging men on foot behind him.

impi as always when ive read your cut and paste,
i pay closer attention to what you have to
say. " dragging men on foot behind him ".
expand please. xhosa

He's referring to the poor souls of the RB.

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Quote :: He's referring to the poor souls of the RB.

Yes, he is probably referring to the RB...but they are no more or less "poor souls" than anybody else out there that day (such as Nourse's escorting NNC company.) As a matter of fact, BEING in the RB allowed 3 men of the 24th to survive that otherwise wouldn't (since they were able to retreat early and secure mounts.) There is no other unit of regulars that had 33% of its troops SURVIVE Isandlwana.

The unfortunate truth for you CTSG is that being around Durnford INCREASED one's chance of survival as, ON A RELATIVE BASIS, he had superior situational awareness. It was the Regulars who had their collective heads thrust in a noose by Chelmsford's written instructions and Pulleine's tactical orders.

Guest

well said.
xhosa

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 3 Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:55 am

The problem I have with the Luard case is a technical one, maybe some one can answer it for me.

The letters were passed to Luard quite some time after the battle. So soaked in blood and left on the battlefield ( would rule out being found in a portmanteau surely) they would have had to have been floating around on the battlefield, exposed to some really horrible weather or they were on the body.
Is there any other aspect Im missing?

Cheers

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